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	<title>Comments on: Iran&#8217;s New Missile</title>
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		<title>By: Hairs</title>
		<link>http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3101/irans-new-missile#comment-1482</link>
		<dc:creator>Hairs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 06:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/?p=3101#comment-1482</guid>
		<description>Is it me, or are there significant differences in the cloud coverage during different segments of the ITN video? Sure we could be looking at some different camera angles showing different parts of the sky, but I get the distinct feeling that the video is not that of a single test, but rather a montage of two or more tests.

If there had been a SERIES of tests (with a perhaps a few failing shortly after launch, hence a video clip of the successful launch only) then in my opinion that would support the idea that the Iranians have developed, and tested, a substantial improvement in their rocketry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it me, or are there significant differences in the cloud coverage during different segments of the ITN video? Sure we could be looking at some different camera angles showing different parts of the sky, but I get the distinct feeling that the video is not that of a single test, but rather a montage of two or more tests.</p>
<p>If there had been a SERIES of tests (with a perhaps a few failing shortly after launch, hence a video clip of the successful launch only) then in my opinion that would support the idea that the Iranians have developed, and tested, a substantial improvement in their rocketry.</p>
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		<title>By: joshua</title>
		<link>http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3101/irans-new-missile#comment-1481</link>
		<dc:creator>joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Aug 2010 01:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/?p=3101#comment-1481</guid>
		<description>Interesting observation.

http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/Dong-Feng/DF-15C_3.jpg

Clearly, they&#039;re not identical, but some similarities are apparent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting observation.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/Dong-Feng/DF-15C_3.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/Dong-Feng/DF-15C_3.jpg</a></p>
<p>Clearly, they&#8217;re not identical, but some similarities are apparent.</p>
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		<title>By: Jochen Schischka</title>
		<link>http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3101/irans-new-missile#comment-1479</link>
		<dc:creator>Jochen Schischka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/?p=3101#comment-1479</guid>
		<description>George, to be honest, i don&#039;t see a lot of sense in discussing something that system-inherently (as an SSTO) will under no circumstances ever be able to compete against Konstantin Eduardovich Tsiolkovsky&#039;s ingeniuosly elegant idea of a multi-staged launcher.
I must also out myself as not a big fan of &#039;full reusability&#039; in space transportation (mostly for matters of safety)...

(Besides, at the moment i&#039;m rather occupied with debunking this &#039;Liliput-Scud&#039;-rumor...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George, to be honest, i don&#8217;t see a lot of sense in discussing something that system-inherently (as an SSTO) will under no circumstances ever be able to compete against Konstantin Eduardovich Tsiolkovsky&#8217;s ingeniuosly elegant idea of a multi-staged launcher.<br />
I must also out myself as not a big fan of &#8216;full reusability&#8217; in space transportation (mostly for matters of safety)&#8230;</p>
<p>(Besides, at the moment i&#8217;m rather occupied with debunking this &#8216;Liliput-Scud&#8217;-rumor&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: David Wright</title>
		<link>http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3101/irans-new-missile#comment-1478</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/?p=3101#comment-1478</guid>
		<description>Geoff,

You’re right that for short-range missiles the fins can be useful to orient the missile during reentry. I was thinking here of a missile of range 500 km or longer and assuming the aerodynamic forces are high enough at that range to break off the body even if oriented--so I was assuming a separating warhead. It’s possible that an oriented body at 500 km range might not be torn off, but it would above something like this range. It would be interesting to look at this in more detail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff,</p>
<p>You’re right that for short-range missiles the fins can be useful to orient the missile during reentry. I was thinking here of a missile of range 500 km or longer and assuming the aerodynamic forces are high enough at that range to break off the body even if oriented&#8211;so I was assuming a separating warhead. It’s possible that an oriented body at 500 km range might not be torn off, but it would above something like this range. It would be interesting to look at this in more detail.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3101/irans-new-missile#comment-1477</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/?p=3101#comment-1477</guid>
		<description>I have an question for everyone..Do you think there could be a possible connection between the Shahab-3/Ghadr-1 warhead/re-entry vehicle and the warhead design of the DF-15C? They look very similar to me and appeared at about the same time. Now I don&#039;t think anyone is sure what speciifc kind of guidance system the DF-15C uses but its widely accepted to have a separating warhead (unlike the original DF-15) and is very similar in shape. Many on the net (including the semi-official Sinodefence) believe the missiles is designed for penetration strikes which does seem logical give the warheads shape. Thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have an question for everyone..Do you think there could be a possible connection between the Shahab-3/Ghadr-1 warhead/re-entry vehicle and the warhead design of the DF-15C? They look very similar to me and appeared at about the same time. Now I don&#8217;t think anyone is sure what speciifc kind of guidance system the DF-15C uses but its widely accepted to have a separating warhead (unlike the original DF-15) and is very similar in shape. Many on the net (including the semi-official Sinodefence) believe the missiles is designed for penetration strikes which does seem logical give the warheads shape. Thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: Jochen Schischka</title>
		<link>http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3101/irans-new-missile#comment-1476</link>
		<dc:creator>Jochen Schischka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 23:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/?p=3101#comment-1476</guid>
		<description>I mostly agree with David Wright&#039;s comment - only that i&#039;m not sure if the Scud&#039;s guidance/steering system may be fast enough to allow the deletion of the fins.
In my eyes, the gyros (1SB9 and 1SB10) and the analog computer (1SB13) will probably respond fast enough - the bottleneck may be the jet vane actuators.
Haven&#039;t found out yet about the minimum response time of an 1SB14 actuator, though (does anybody have that information at hand?).
Anyway, the actuator boxes on the Qiam-1 look identical to those of a Scud-B/-C/-D to me, but that doesn&#039;t automatically exclude different internals.

Nonetheless i also agree with Geoff: In case of the Scud (and other single-staged missiles without warhead-separation), the fins are ALSO vital for reentry (of course, they don&#039;t work without an atmosphere - that&#039;s why they&#039;re not used on upper stages that won&#039;t see any air during operation, like in case of the DF-4).
The need for non-active directional alignment (aka aerodynamic stability) also typically dictates the form/mass distribution of separated reentry-vehicles - thus they often have small fins or a mostly empty (or at least lightweight) conical section at the rear (like in case of the &quot;triconic&quot; RV - or even the Minuteman&#039;s Mk.11).

Also, don&#039;t forget that there are missiles WITH a separating warhead AND fins out there, too (like the DF-3, or the DF-2/R-5M, or the DF-1/R-2, or the R-12, or the R-13, or the R-14, or the Nodong-A etc. etc. etc.)...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mostly agree with David Wright&#8217;s comment &#8211; only that i&#8217;m not sure if the Scud&#8217;s guidance/steering system may be fast enough to allow the deletion of the fins.<br />
In my eyes, the gyros (1SB9 and 1SB10) and the analog computer (1SB13) will probably respond fast enough &#8211; the bottleneck may be the jet vane actuators.<br />
Haven&#8217;t found out yet about the minimum response time of an 1SB14 actuator, though (does anybody have that information at hand?).<br />
Anyway, the actuator boxes on the Qiam-1 look identical to those of a Scud-B/-C/-D to me, but that doesn&#8217;t automatically exclude different internals.</p>
<p>Nonetheless i also agree with Geoff: In case of the Scud (and other single-staged missiles without warhead-separation), the fins are ALSO vital for reentry (of course, they don&#8217;t work without an atmosphere &#8211; that&#8217;s why they&#8217;re not used on upper stages that won&#8217;t see any air during operation, like in case of the DF-4).<br />
The need for non-active directional alignment (aka aerodynamic stability) also typically dictates the form/mass distribution of separated reentry-vehicles &#8211; thus they often have small fins or a mostly empty (or at least lightweight) conical section at the rear (like in case of the &#8220;triconic&#8221; RV &#8211; or even the Minuteman&#8217;s Mk.11).</p>
<p>Also, don&#8217;t forget that there are missiles WITH a separating warhead AND fins out there, too (like the DF-3, or the DF-2/R-5M, or the DF-1/R-2, or the R-12, or the R-13, or the R-14, or the Nodong-A etc. etc. etc.)&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jochen Schischka</title>
		<link>http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3101/irans-new-missile#comment-1475</link>
		<dc:creator>Jochen Schischka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 23:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/?p=3101#comment-1475</guid>
		<description>Yes, in my eyes this is incorrect.

I can only ask myself how somebody can interpret an unarticulated spot in a blurry video stillframe as a &quot;steering nozzle&quot; (wishful thinking?). There are MUCH better images of the &quot;triconic&quot; RV available by now (e.g. from the september-parades of Ghadr-1 or Sejil) - and it is clear that there is no such steering nozzle (it&#039;s most likely an explosive bolt for warhead separation - which tells us something about the anchorage of that warhead, as well as that the &#039;end conus&#039; of the RV is hollow on the inside, which also corresponds well to aerodynamic requirements)!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, in my eyes this is incorrect.</p>
<p>I can only ask myself how somebody can interpret an unarticulated spot in a blurry video stillframe as a &#8220;steering nozzle&#8221; (wishful thinking?). There are MUCH better images of the &#8220;triconic&#8221; RV available by now (e.g. from the september-parades of Ghadr-1 or Sejil) &#8211; and it is clear that there is no such steering nozzle (it&#8217;s most likely an explosive bolt for warhead separation &#8211; which tells us something about the anchorage of that warhead, as well as that the &#8216;end conus&#8217; of the RV is hollow on the inside, which also corresponds well to aerodynamic requirements)!</p>
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		<title>By: geoff</title>
		<link>http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3101/irans-new-missile#comment-1473</link>
		<dc:creator>geoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>David,
  You have obviously thought a great deal deeper about this than I have--certainly you have found a very important reference--it appears that a SCUD&#039;s guidance system still needs any perturbations to be damped out a bit by the fins after it gains a great deal of velocity.  But you haven&#039;t addressed the other half of my point: fins are needed for reentry.  I still think their absence is the most direct evidence yet of a separating warhead. (Lines are all very nice but...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,<br />
  You have obviously thought a great deal deeper about this than I have&#8211;certainly you have found a very important reference&#8211;it appears that a SCUD&#8217;s guidance system still needs any perturbations to be damped out a bit by the fins after it gains a great deal of velocity.  But you haven&#8217;t addressed the other half of my point: fins are needed for reentry.  I still think their absence is the most direct evidence yet of a separating warhead. (Lines are all very nice but&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: David Wright</title>
		<link>http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3101/irans-new-missile#comment-1472</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 16:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/?p=3101#comment-1472</guid>
		<description>Fins are commonly used for stabilization during boost. An interesting example is the 2-stage Chinese DF-4 missile, which has fins on the first stage but not on the second stage (see the picture at http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/missile/df4.asp). Since the first stage is dropped during boost, the fins can’t have anything to do with reentry.

Whether you can use a guidance system without fins to stabilize a missile early in flight depends on how good the guidance system is – how good it is at sensing changes in the orientation of the missile and how quickly it can respond. The extra stability added by the fins significantly reduces the speed at which the guidance system needs to be able to react. 

Clearly unguided missiles (even model rockets) need fins for stabilization during launch. Missiles with advanced guidance systems, like U.S. ICBMs, clearly don’t. Someplace between those two is a point at which the guidance system is good enough to get rid of the fins. The fact that the Chinese DF-4 still has fins suggests to me that Scud needs them for stabilization during boost, and this agrees with this excerpt from the Pentagon’s MTCL below.

I agree with Schmucker and Schiller’s idea that Iran is testing a better guidance system, but still with jet-vanes. As I said in my post, they may be doing this guidance outside the missile. 

David

Militarily Critical Technologies List (MCTL) (September 1998), Part II: Weapons of Mass Destruction Technologies
(http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mctl98-2/index.html), pg. II-1-7:

“The aerodynamic and inertial properties of the missile and the nature of the atmospheric conditions through which it flies determine the speed with which guidance commands need to be sent to the control system. First generation TBMs, such as the SCUD and the Redstone, have fins to damp out in-flight perturbations. The rudimentary guidance systems used in these missiles do not support rapid calculations of position changes. When a missile’s thrust vector control system becomes responsive enough to overcome these perturbations without aerodynamic control surfaces, these fins are usually removed from the design because their added weight and aerodynamic drag diminish the missile’s range.

“Most TBM designs have a resonance around 10 Hz (cycle time of 100 milliseconds. Calculations to correct disturbances must occur within this cycle time. Guidance and control engineers generally add a factor of safety of two to their cycle time or, in other words, half the cycle time. When thrust vectoring is the exclusive control standard of a missile, the system must respond or have a major cycle time of 50 milliseconds or less. When fins are used, the control cycle time for a missile may be much longer than a second.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fins are commonly used for stabilization during boost. An interesting example is the 2-stage Chinese DF-4 missile, which has fins on the first stage but not on the second stage (see the picture at <a href="http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/missile/df4.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/missile/df4.asp</a>). Since the first stage is dropped during boost, the fins can’t have anything to do with reentry.</p>
<p>Whether you can use a guidance system without fins to stabilize a missile early in flight depends on how good the guidance system is – how good it is at sensing changes in the orientation of the missile and how quickly it can respond. The extra stability added by the fins significantly reduces the speed at which the guidance system needs to be able to react. </p>
<p>Clearly unguided missiles (even model rockets) need fins for stabilization during launch. Missiles with advanced guidance systems, like U.S. ICBMs, clearly don’t. Someplace between those two is a point at which the guidance system is good enough to get rid of the fins. The fact that the Chinese DF-4 still has fins suggests to me that Scud needs them for stabilization during boost, and this agrees with this excerpt from the Pentagon’s MTCL below.</p>
<p>I agree with Schmucker and Schiller’s idea that Iran is testing a better guidance system, but still with jet-vanes. As I said in my post, they may be doing this guidance outside the missile. </p>
<p>David</p>
<p>Militarily Critical Technologies List (MCTL) (September 1998), Part II: Weapons of Mass Destruction Technologies<br />
(<a href="http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mctl98-2/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mctl98-2/index.html</a>), pg. II-1-7:</p>
<p>“The aerodynamic and inertial properties of the missile and the nature of the atmospheric conditions through which it flies determine the speed with which guidance commands need to be sent to the control system. First generation TBMs, such as the SCUD and the Redstone, have fins to damp out in-flight perturbations. The rudimentary guidance systems used in these missiles do not support rapid calculations of position changes. When a missile’s thrust vector control system becomes responsive enough to overcome these perturbations without aerodynamic control surfaces, these fins are usually removed from the design because their added weight and aerodynamic drag diminish the missile’s range.</p>
<p>“Most TBM designs have a resonance around 10 Hz (cycle time of 100 milliseconds. Calculations to correct disturbances must occur within this cycle time. Guidance and control engineers generally add a factor of safety of two to their cycle time or, in other words, half the cycle time. When thrust vectoring is the exclusive control standard of a missile, the system must respond or have a major cycle time of 50 milliseconds or less. When fins are used, the control cycle time for a missile may be much longer than a second.”</p>
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		<title>By: Pirouz</title>
		<link>http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3101/irans-new-missile#comment-1470</link>
		<dc:creator>Pirouz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 04:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jochen, in your opinion is the following observation inaccurate?

http://a.imageshack.us/img833/8306/shahabnoz.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jochen, in your opinion is the following observation inaccurate?</p>
<p><a href="http://a.imageshack.us/img833/8306/shahabnoz.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://a.imageshack.us/img833/8306/shahabnoz.jpg</a></p>
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